JACK ENDINO - PRODUCING THE HISTORY

By Thiago Pinto Corrêa Sarkis

Mudhoney, Soundgarden, Nirvana, L7, Bruce Dickinson, Therapy?, The Black Halos, are you familiar with most of those names? Being a rock fan or not, I hope you are. Otherwise, you could only be in another planet in the last fifteen years or more.

Those bands and artists became part of rock'n'roll history, playing in their very own way and style. But to put their names in this 'hall of fame', they needed a lot of help, that's for sure. Record labels, radios, magazines, fans, producers... oops, there he is... Mr. JACK ENDINO!

The producer of Nirvana's very first demo, the producer of their first full-length, "Bleach" and also did demos with Kurt Cobain, Dave Grohl and Krist Novoselic before they officialy entered in the studios to record "In Utero" with Steve Albini. Endino also worked in "Skunkworks", album of the highly acclaimed Iron Maiden's singer, Bruce Dickinson. Not enough? So what about Mudhoney's "My Brother The Cow", "Mudhoney", "Superfuzz Bigmuff"? Ok, I think he's well introduced to you now, even without mentioning his works with the other bands early mentioned.

Nowadays, Jack has been very involved with the WEED file format, a new technology that brings new ideas and solutions to the crisis of the music industry. And as always, producing, engineering, mastering bands like The Boss Martians, Zen Guerrilla, among others that are already producing history with Endino's support once again and ready to put their name in the 'hall of fame' in the near future.

We had a good talk with this true legend of rock'n'roll and besides his ability and competence as a producer, he showed to be a very nice and receptive person, with an impressive readiness to answer even the most deep and tuff questions. Check it out:

Thiago Sarkis : What have you been up to? Which bands are you producing and working with?

JE : - I've been doing lots of rock bands lately... bands from Utah, Canada, Washington DC, and Switzerland have traveled to Seattle to work with me. The most famous one right now is called Hot Hot Heat; the band has done extremely well in Canada, the UK and the US. Another band I am very excited about right now is called the Boss Martians. I have also started to do a lot of mixing and mastering instead of just producing and recording.

Thiago Sarkis : Do you keep your work also as a musician? Skin Yard is releasing a new album called "The Perfect Lawn", but this is a live album. Do you have in mind getting back with the band activities, recording new stuff in a studio?

JE : - Skin Yard is definitely finished. The live album is only a CD-R that I'm selling from my website. I do still play sometimes... in fact, I just played 4 shows as a temporary bass player for some friends of mine, and I still record my own music when I have time, but I don't expect to be playing in a regular "band" situation anytime soon. I'm too busy as a record producer. I do however have a solo album that I have just finished; Barrett Martin (who I introduced to Nando Reis!) plays drums on it. It's kind a Zeppelin-ish heavy rock record, sounding a bit like Skin Yard, but with my vocals and guitar.

Thiago Sarkis : You're involved in something very important that are the WEED Files. Give us your opinion about MP3 and please, tell us more about this new WEED technology and what can it bring to help the crisis in the music industry.

JE : - My biggest proJE :ct recently has been working with the WEED company here in Seattle to create a new method of selling music files online, in such a way that everyone gets paid... the artists, AND the listeners too! I have a website called "Jacksweedcafe.com" with files by many of the artists I have worked with... it has only been up for a few months and the word is starting to spread. There are many other WEED websites appearing every day. The WEED file format may change the way music is bought and sold online. Basically, it's a secure WMA file that generates a micro-payment every time the file changes hands. You download the file, and you can play it for free, three times, and then you have to buy it to play it any more. It will only play on your computer, although you can burn a CD from it. But... then, if you send that file to someone else, and he buys it, you get a sales commission of 20%. Anyone can sell any WEED file to someone else and get a sales commission. The Weed company takes 15% of every sale... and the original artist gets 50% of every sale, always. In other words, they built an incentive into the system, to make people share the files as much as possible! Everyone gets to make money. You can "crack" it and turn it into an MP3, but then you lose the money you might have made from the file yourself. There's much more to it; you'll just have to go to www.weedshare.com and read about it. MP3s? I'm not sure we can put all the blame for music industry troubles on the MP3... I think the CD-R is a bigger problem. You only have to go down to the street in Rio or SP to see that. Most people in the world do not even have telephones, or the internet, or "broadband" internet especially. But anyone can have a CD player! I don't know what the answer is, but I think that the labels should have made CDs cost less, as the cost of manufacturing CDs decreased. Now everyone knows that they cost less than a dollar to make. But the labels kept prices high, because they act like a cartel. Record companies seem to think they are immune to basic economics principles like "supply and demand." If demand decreases, the price should go down. No one wants to pay 20 dollars for a CD!

Thiago Sarkis : Well, let's go to Nirvana. You worked a lot with them, and since their first years. Tell us about this history, how did you get in touch with Kurt Cobain and Nirvana and what caught your attention in their music?

JE : - One day they called me, and said they were friends of the Melvins, and wanted to record a demo. I said, "Friends of the Melvins, friends of mine" and told them to come on over to the studio. We recorded and mixed ten songs in 5 hours, because they only had a little bit of money, and they had to go and play a live show that same night. I thought they were amazing. I had only been a recording engineer for a year and a half at that point.

Thiago Sarkis : Their first full length, "Bleach", was produced by you. Sincerely I don't think that this is the best production work you already did. What would you say about the production of this album, and the recording and composing period? In your opinion, is there any song that the band didn't record and should do it at that time?

JE : - Well... a record that only took 30 hours, on an eight-track machine, would be very unlikely to be my "very best" production! That's why it just says "recorded" by me. So I don't take offense at your comment. It is very ironic that my best-known record is probably my least-produced one. There wasn't time for much "production" really, most of my work was just hitting the "record" button, and making sure they were "in tune"! The band didn't even use all 8 tracks! Much of the record is four drum tracks, one bass, one guitar, and one vocal track. Considering that, and the very terrible drums and instruments they had at the time, I think it sounds amazing! You can only do so much, with a recording budget of 600 dollars! I wish they had done a good recording of the song "Blandest"... we had one (it's been bootlegged from a rough mix cassette), but everyone agreed the "take" was not very good, and they were going to do a better one later, so we erased it to make room for another song on the tape... that's how little money they had! They could not afford to buy another reel of tape! Then, they never got around to recording it again. There was also a song called "Anorexorcist" that I wish they had recorded. Also "Help Me I'm Hungry."

Thiago Sarkis : Give us your thoughts on "Nevermind" and in your opinion... why this album made Nirvana so big?

JE : - The production is very radio-friendly, very loud and bright and compressed... but most important, the songs and melodies were great. Also, Kurt's vocals really affected people... his singing sounds very genuine. On the other hand, to take an opposing view - devil's advocate -, I think it is only half a great album... some of the songs I still can never remember, like "Lounge Act". "Territorial Pissings" and "Stay Away" are only half songs, to my ears, like Kurt never finished writing them. "Come As You Are" is a Killing Joke song, right down to the eighties stereo chorus on the guitar. There are about 6 amazing songs on there... "Smells Like Teen Spirit", "Lithium", "In Bloom", "Breed", "On A Plain", "Drain You". Of course, this is much better than most albums! I could say the same thing about Bleach... half a great album. No one remembers "Swap Meet" or "Scoff".

Thiago Sarkis : You had participation in the "rarities" album "Incesticide". How was your participation on it? Did you reunite with the band at that time?

JE : - Actually all of those 7 songs are much older material. "Sliver" was a Sub Pop single we had recorded while Dan Peters from Mudhoney was drumming for them... we recorded it on Tad's equipment while Tad was taking a dinner break at the studio. "Big Long Now" was a Bleach out-take that I had in my basement for a long time, I had to remind the band that it existed or I probably would still have the tape! The other 5 songs that are "mine" on Incesticide are all from that very first Nirvana demo recorded in 5 hours on January 23, 1988. As I said earlier, we recorded ten songs that day, and I mixed them in about an hour, or about 6 minutes per song... it was the demo that got them signed to Sub Pop. What always upset me was that I was not given the chance to do better mixes of those songs for "Incesticide"... they used the original demo mixes. But Kurt did not seem interested in this idea, he just wanted to satisfy the record company, who were desperate for a new album to follow up "Nevermind".

Thiago Sarkis : Few people know, but you also participated in some way of "In Utero". As you say, you did an 8-track demo for "In Utero" with them. Which songs did they play and that appear on the album? Did you feel some difference in their sonority, in the direction of the songs, than when you recorded "Bleach" with them?

JE : - There were 6 songs, and I don't remember now which ones they were, but all of them were on In Utero, in almost identical form. They never did vocals on any of them except Rape Me, which hopefully will be considered for a possible box set some day. The band sounded almost the same as in the old days, but with better drumming and better playing... although, without any vocals (not even a "guide" vocal), I remember not really having much of an opinion about the songs. Without hearing Kurt's vocal melodies, they just weren't "songs" yet. Pat Smear was not present; I don't know if he was in the band yet. It was October 1992, I think.

Thiago Sarkis : Later the album would be produced by Steve Albini. What would you say about the result and also about the production of Steve Albini?

JE : - I like what he did with them. I knew they were going to use Steve, because they talked about him while I was recording the demo. I knew Steve would be controversial, and that he would probably not be making "Nevermind 2"! And that's exactly what happened! I think In Utero has the strongest songs of all the records, and the best lyrics. Even the In Utero out-take songs are good: "Hate Myself", "Sappy", "MV", "Gallons of Rubbing Alcohol"... even Grohl's song "Marigold".

Thiago Sarkis : I know how hard it is to you to say things about Kurt Cobain. But just two questions. All the rumours, books and things that people write about him... how much of truth do those things contain? What would you - that knew him before all the success - say about Cobain as a person, habits, relation with the press, etc? Did he change a lot with the time and the success?

JE : - I think he changed. The few times I was around him in the later years, he was a different person. In the early days he was just a small-town guy with a guitar and a very amazing voice. A very nice person; he once tried to give me one of his left-handed guitars.When he became famous, you could tell he was having trouble dealing with it. The drugs affected his personality too. When we did the "In Utero" demos, he didn't even bother to show up on the first day, and didn't come until evening on the second day. That would never have happened in the early days.

Thiago Sarkis : What do you think about Courtney Love and all those fights involving the rights of "Nirvana" songs?

JE : - No comment!

Thiago Sarkis : So, one more... How did you receive the notice of Kurt's suicide? Knowing him as you knew, could you imagine that he would be able to do that? Do you believe that he really did it?

JE : - I did not take it well. I was sad, and angry at the same time, a very hard feeling to deal with. How could you not believe that he could do that? You don't have to be a genius to figure it out. All you have to do is watch him closely in the "Heart Shaped Box" video clip, and then listen to "You Know You're Right". It looks and sounds like a person with a death wish!

Thiago Sarkis : In 1996, you produced Bruce Dickinson's "Skunkworks". This is one of your few METAL (metal in its complete sense) you did, right? How did it happen? How was this experience of producing a metal artist and how was the production and the relation with Dickinson?

JE : - It was not that much different than working with Soundgarden. I had worked with metal style bands before, but nothing famous, although the Accused album I did, "Grinning Like An Undertaker", is one of my very best ever. Bruce specifially did not want to make a record like Iron Maiden; he wanted to make a modern-sounding heavy record, somewhat like Soundgarden or King's X. I was happy to help him do this. I got him to try things he never did before, and has never done since. I really like the first and last songs on that record... "Space Race" and "Strange Death". I also remember "Meltdown", the song that we used the original snare drum from "Back in Black" on. Nicko McBrain owned it. Bruce was great to work with, and we had a good studio and good equipment, and plenty of time. Unfortunately, some of the fans were upset that the record didn't sound more like Iron Maiden! It was an experiment for Bruce, but soon after that, he fired the band that recorded the album, got Adrian Smith in his band, and his next few solo records sounded exactly like Iron Maiden... now he's back with Maiden! So... the record didn't do much for my career, or for his. But I think it is a pretty great record.

Thiago Sarkis : By the way, what do you think about the return of Iron Maiden?

JE : - I'm glad they're still around. I haven't heard their new recordings since Bruce has been back. What is more interesting to me, is that their management company, Sanctuary, has been kicking ass with their record company, Sanctuary Records... they just put out a Ween record! How cool is that?

Thiago Sarkis : Let's relax a bit with some soft personal, and funny questions.

Thiago Sarkis : The best production you ever did...

JE : - Hot Hot Heat "Make Up The Breakdown"; Therapy? "Shameless"; Titãs "Domingo"; Accused "Grinning Like An Undertaker"; Mark Lanegan "The Winding Sheet"; The Black Halos "The Violent Years"; Mudhoney "Mudhoney"; Dirty Power "Dirty Power". That's all I can remember right now.

Thiago Sarkis : A band that you would love to work with... why?

JE : - The Rolling Stones... so I could try to get them to play and record like an actual rock band again! If anyone could do it, I could! But it's hard when they all live on separate tropical islands.

Thiago Sarkis : Five words that come to your mind when you think about your time working with Mudhoney...

JE : - Always a lot of fun.

Thiago Sarkis : Complete these sentences:

- The Seattle scene nowadays is...

JE : - ... pretty cool, there's bands of every possible style.

- The girls from L7 are...

JE : - ...in need of another really good rock record. They should call me!

- If I receive a millionaire proposal to produce an album of Hole, I'd...

JE : - ...flip a coin. Heads, I produce the album; tails, I commit suicide.

- Dave Grohl is...

JE : - ...the new Ringo Starr, and Foo Fighters is the best-ever band led by a famous drummer.

Thiago Sarkis : To conclude, comments on these producers and their works...

- Rick Rubin (Red Hot Chili Peppers, AC / DC, Roy Orbison, Slayer, among others)

JE : - I like and greatly respect a lot of what he has done, especially the Chili Peppers. But sometimes his records are too dry for me, like AC/DC's "Ballbreaker" record... it just had no meat on the bones.

- Robert John Lange (AC / DC, Def Leppard, Shania Twain, among others)

JE : - I haven't listened to anything he's done since Def Leppard's "High 'N' Dry". I really like the AC/DC Records, but I really don't like the crazy overproduction he got into later.

- Brian Eno (David Bowie, Talking Heads, U2, among others)

JE : - I think he should stay away from producing rock bands. Exception: Talking Heads "Remain in Light", a brilliant record.

- Bob Rock (Metallica, Mötley Crüe, Bon Jovi, among others)

JE : - Too much production for me. Metallica sound amazing to me, but totally "sterile". Everything is too perfect, too precise. There is nothing left to chance.

- Other producers that you like and would mention...

JE : - Now? This is funny... what about Martin Birch (Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Whitesnake), Glyn Johns (Steve Miller Band, Bob Dylan, The Who, The Rolling Stones, Joe Satriani), Jimmy Page (Led Zeppelin, The Firm, Page & Plant, Screaming Lord Sutch), Terry Date (PanterA, Soundgarden, White Zombie, Prong), Eddie Kramer (Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, Kiss, The Rolling Stones), George Martin (Beatles, Paul McCartney, Peter Gabriel), Brendan O'Brien (Pearl Jam, Rage Against The Machine, Bruce Springsteen) These are some people I really respect.

Thiago Sarkis : Thanks for the interview Jack. It was a pleasure doing an interview with you...

JE : - My pleasure, these were good questions.

Jack Endino Mudhoney and Wayne Kramer


Jack Endino - Angle of Attack


Jack Endino in Brazil


Jack Endino and Therapy?


Jack Endino and Back In Blacks' original
snare drum